Why Most Change Fails: Human Risk Intelligence

Organizations model the cost of every big transformation: the reorg, the ERP swap, the AI rollout, the acquisition. What they rarely model is whether their people carry the capability to execute it. That gap is what Mo Berkner-Boyt built C2IQ to measure.

In this episode, Elissa and Mo dig into human risk intelligence and why it belongs on the executive dashboard next to financial and operational risk. Mo explains the two hemispheres the assessment measures, change resilience and human connection, and why an organization strong in one and weak in the other fails in predictable ways. 

Mo walks through the neuroscience underneath all of it: the brain reads change as a threat and connection as a survival need, and when either is missing, collaboration and problem-solving drop. She shares case studies from a CEO repositioning a sales team for acquisition, a tech company protecting frontline managers through an AI pivot, and an executive team dividing strategy ownership by skill strength. The throughline: this was called soft for years, but it was just unmeasured.

Key takeaways

• Human risk is financial risk. The people side of change can be measured as precisely as the money side, and it predicts whether an initiative stalls or loses key talent.
• Change resilience and human connection have to move together. Strength in one without the other produces predictable failure patterns, not partial success.
• Connection is neurological, not sentimental. The brain treats belonging as a survival need and change as a threat, and both shape execution.
• Confidence is not competence. People overrate their own change skills, and the aggregate team view usually tells a different story than the individual one.
• Sentiment is not skill. Pulse surveys capture a moment in time. Skills data tells you where execution will fail.
• The cost of doing nothing compounds. Every slow or failed change carries a price most leaders never put a number to.

About the guest

Mo Berkner-Boyt is the founder of C2IQ and previously founded Everyday Inclusion. Her work centers on making the human side of business measurable so organizations can see and close the skill gaps that quietly drain change initiatives.

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Connect with Mo Berkner-Boyt
 → LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/maureenberknerboyt/
→ Website: https://c2iq.io/

Connect with Elissa Mahendra
 → LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/emahendra/
→ LinkedIn Newsletter: https://www.linkedin.com/newsletters/the-human-roi-7396293873473523713
→ The Human ROI Podcast: https://thehumanroi.buzzsprout.com/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

70 plus percent of change fails. 70. Like it's ridiculous the amount of time, money, resources that are thrown at failed change until now we have not been addressing that root cause of the humans that actually have to do the work. Exactly. Do they have the skills that are needed?

SPEAKER_02 0:18

Welcome back to the Human ROI podcast. I'm your host, Elisa Mahendra. I created this space around a simple but often overlooked idea. People aren't separate from ROI in organizations. They're how ROI is created. I've spent more than 20 years in talent, leadership, and organizational transformation. And I'll tell you, I've seen what happens when companies invest in their people the right way and what it costs them when they don't. So on this podcast, we explore leadership, culture, and talent systems and how they either compound your value or erode it over time. You'll hear conversations with leaders, builders, thinkers, and change makers who are shaping the future of work. And we'll share some practical insights that you can apply right away. Because whether you're leading a company or you're building your own career, understanding human ROI is everything. And when you invest wisely, it pays dividends. Welcome back to the Human ROI. Today's guest is Mo Berkner Boyd, who is the founder of C2IQ, which we're going to dig into in just a moment. Welcome, Mo. It is so good to be here, Lisa. Thank you for having me. Yes, I'm really excited. And what I hope for our conversation today is that we can really dig into C2IQ, what you've invested in, and how organizations can get a greater ROI on their change efforts. We're here on the human ROI talking about how to get the most return on your investment in your human capital. And change is a big part of that in organizations today, as you know. But before we get into that conversation, I'd love to start with an origin story. So, Mo, you've built two companies around the core belief that the human side of business is not just important, it's measurable. So take us back to the moment where you realized, hmm, organizations are sitting on human risk they can't see. And that became C2IQ. Take us through that journey.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Rewinding the tape is always fun for me because I look and I think the arc of my career, there are a couple of things that have been consistent. How do we make work work for everybody? Because when everybody is showing up and they're thriving, not just surviving, you know, not hating their job, but actually in an environment where they can do their best work, business results follow. Right. So those aren't two different things. That piece, and then I've always looked to data and I always look at how do you create things that are really high utility, really highly usable. And in 2024, I was looking at the pace of change and and what was happening uh in terms of burnout and change fatigue and the number of changes that organizations were going through. And all this really started accelerating uh with COVID in 2019. And again, I'm I'm curious. So I started looking at like, well, what's behind all that? Why, why do we have this change fatigue? Why do we have this loneliness epidemic? Why are people quiet quitting and job clinging? There's a whole lexicon around how dumpster fire that is work right now. And and so I started to dig in. I started to dig into the data and what the numbers were telling us, but then the neuroscience. What was neurologically happening that was causing us to react this way? And then I write a ton of research. And it was really this aha moment of wait a minute, these are these are discrete skills. We've been we've been talking about change management. We need to be talking about change resilience. And what are those core skills that people need to be able to navigate this new world of work? Because it's not going away. The pace of change is not going to slow down. And C2IQ is really born from that. Like, how do we solve for getting people to be better at change, getting people to be better at connecting to one another so that they can drive business results and so that it isn't a dumpster fire?

SPEAKER_02 4:38

I love that because, as, you know, and for all transparency for our listeners, I have known you for a couple of years now, several years, because of the first company that you built, Everyday Inclusion. And again, making work work for everyone. And when I heard that you had started a new company, I thought, wow, I'd love to learn more about that. And it happened to be around the discipline around change. And being a change management practitioner, I couldn't help but want to know more and be curious and learn about what it was. And then, of course, that led me to being certified in the assessment tool. Um, and now kind of a big fan of your work and following along and really seeing something that's different than anything I've seen in the market as a change practitioner, because for years, change management has sat in the project management office. Yes. For years it sat in transformation office, but that isn't addressing the human behavior side of change. And what I love is that as part of your assessment, you've coined the term human risk intelligence. I'm just gonna say that again. Human risk intelligence is what your assessment provides to individuals and teams and organizations. So for leaders who've not heard that phrase before, what is it? Why should it be on every executive's dashboard right now, next to financial risk and operational risk?

SPEAKER_01 6:06

Because it is financial risk and operational risk, right? So human risk intelligence really is on that people side, the behaviors, the skills, the discrete capabilities of change and connection themselves. And P2IQ actually makes it as measurable as financial risk in high-stakes change. So if you think about something like a re-org or a restructure or an acquisition and an integration, AI transformation, a big tech integration. You've got a new ERP, whatever it might be. We do all the financial modeling for that. You don't go into big transformations without really understanding and having kind of a thesis behind what are we driving toward? How much is it gonna cost us? There has been an entire layer of risk that has not been addressed. And that is that human risk intelligence. People might be excited about the transformation, they might be wary about the transformation, whatever it may be. And you might go through the traditional change management practices. What's in it for them? We're gonna communicate, we're gonna have champions, we're gonna do all those things, and all that is still necessary. It does not matter if people don't have the core skills behind whatever the change or transformation may be. It doesn't matter the organization size, it doesn't matter the industry, it doesn't matter their role. These are discrete skills that can be measured that are gonna show you is your change initiative gonna stall? Are you gonna have turnover in key groups of people? Are you gonna have people kicking the can down the road because they can't make decisions or solve problems, all of those things? That's identifiable risk that's telling you you've invested so much in this transformation. Do the people have the capability to pull it off?

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Yeah, I I think in a way that I haven't seen before, because it's not saying that C2IQ replaces decades of change management efforts and planning and methodologies. It augments it in a really meaningful way that we weren't able to see before. 78% of organizations are experiencing the demand for or the mandate around AI adoption, yet 80% of the organizations are not seeing the financial results from it. There's a lot of investment in value leakage, and largely due to human behavior and the lack of human behavior change. So you argue that building change resilience before the change hits is so important. And those organizations who do that well come out on top. So, what does resilience look like in a team? How would you recognize it? And why is it the multiplier for every other investment an organization makes in its people?

SPEAKER_01 8:55

Yeah. And I think when oftentimes people think about resilience, and we're really talking about change resilience. So let's just talk about pace of change for a moment. Uh back uh in 2018-ish, organizations typically had two planned um changes in a year. Uh, that's up to 10. Now I want you to think about what's happening in the world around us and all of the changes that are taking place in the world around us. Our brain actually can't distinguish the difference between business change and change at large in our lives. And so when we think about change resilience, it is how do we help people to be better at the capabilities of change itself? And when you're better at that, it doesn't matter what's happening in the business. Think about some of the most disruptive change for an individual is actually a new team member coming on, right? It changes everything. That that's not on an or that's not on a strategic plan anywhere. Or there's a a leadership change, or somebody goes out on parental leave, or right, all these things that we're constantly having to do. And by the way, AI transformation and all the plan things. First, when you as an organization understand the capabilities and then you know how to build those capabilities of change resilience, that's about executing every single thing in your strategy. And when we're talking about execution excellence, that's change resilience builds, everything else builds, because then you've got the the the uh framework for execution excellence.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

Yeah. Yeah. And and that's half of the equation, right? Change resilience. And also you talked about the biggest changes people undergo are changes in a team member, changes in leadership. Certainly I can think back across my career, and changes in leadership changed my experience day to day. Absolutely. More so than learning a new system, learning new technology, changing the the job description that I happen to be sitting in at the time. And so the other side of it is the human connection that speaks to that. And I think people intuitively understand resilience, but the human connection piece, that's where a lot of leaders underinvest because it's hard to measure historically. But it it seems to be the soft stuff. So I want you to share with our listeners why are both required and what happens when organizations are strong in one but weak in the other. What have you seen?

SPEAKER_01 11:37

Yeah. So if you think about during any sort of transformation, what needs to happen, right? There needs to be trust that if something is going wrong, somebody's gonna speak up, right? That that is a part of having psychological safety. I have to, in a re-org, in a restructure, in whatever, whatever it might be, I'm probably working with new people. And I'm having to work across different parts of the organization. I need to build rapport, right? We are social animals. In fact, neurologically, we see connection as a survival need. And so when you think about we, and I just I don't know how long we are into this conversation, but I I haven't wonked on the neuroscience yet, and I just have to for a minute.

SPEAKER_02 12:27

Yes, please.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Uh, because what really does happen on the human connection side is not soft skills at all. Um, and it is very measurable now. And and same thing with change resilience. We crave certainty. And so our brain is doing everything that it can because we crave certainty because we see it again as survival, right? We see change neurologically as a threat. We see a disconnect, the loneliness, everything that we're seeing in workplaces right now, again, as a survival need. What happens? We go into amygdala hijack, collaboration drops, IQ drops, right? We are, we are our brain, we like to think we're these evolved beings. We're still kind of lizards. Our brain is like back to safety, back to safety, back to safety. And so when that human connection piece is missing, right? I'm in survival mode. So kicking people through change, a re-org, a restructure, a new team member, all of that, at our core, we are social beings who need to feel safety, feel trust. And so if you are out of balance on any of those, let's say you've got an organization that's uh have very high skills in change resilience. So they have problem-solving confidence, they have persistence, they have optimism, they have all of these skills, but they have no human connection skills or low human connection skills. What you are going to see is people that are moving through change quickly, but they're not being honest when um when things are going wrong. You've got a very high risk of turnover. And because if I don't feel like I belong, guess what? The same neurological pathways fire as if I'm getting uh in physical pain.

unknown 14:12

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

So I'm not gonna stay in that environment. So people might be problem solving like crazy, but when they can't solve that problem or where there's an issue, they're not gonna raise it. Like those are those are sort of the extreme. If you have high connection skills, but no change resilience skills, boy, everyone's gonna feel really good and nothing is getting done. Nothing is getting done. People, things are getting kicked up. There's groupthink, there's, you know, it's taking a million years to make a simple decision. People are very pessimistic about outcomes, right? But but everyone's getting along, right? Because we do have those empathy and listening skills. So that is why that is why these skills really do dance a tango, right? They you can't measure one. Both are critically important and that balance is really important.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

Yeah, I love that. And as someone who loves to dance, I love that analogy of dancing with tango. Um, and and maybe if I can build on that, when I started my own boutique consulting firm, I recognized that really the power that I bring to organizations is my background in talent and transformation and the intersection of the two. And I have the traditional pro-site change management certification. I stood up the change management practice in a large global organization. But there's always a piece missing. And when I found Sue 2IQ, I thought my prayers have been answered. And so I use it as the diagnostic tool, in addition to the discovery process when engaging with new clients, around how are we looking at where the human risk exists in your organization and not just at the individual level. I think to date, you and I have been talking about it at the individual level. But what I love is the ability to look at it on the team level in the radar map. And so you and I recently worked together to on a white paper at the Transform conference. And you recently briefed these findings at the DLMAT conference for a PE audience. Again, talk about change, talk about change. And that challenged a big assumption around people feeling personally ready for change, but the data told a different story around the gap between individual confidence and workforce capability. And I want to tie that together because I think that mirrors the individual view of change resilience and the team readiness around change resilience. Yes. That gap and showing my confidence as an individual leader in organizations and the workforce capability. So I I'd love for you to expand on that confidence-competence gap and why it's so dangerous.

SPEAKER_01 16:58

Yeah, I think we perhaps inherently know our own strengths, right? Our own skill strengths, and we always have a little bit of performance bias for ourselves, thinking that we're actually uh better at a skill than we are. And then we're in organizations and we see we we have our coworkers, we see, we see the the leadership team, we see all of it. We're like, yeah, no, actually, we don't have that. Right. So there is this the confidence, competence, skill gap. The other thing that is really interesting in the PE world is really seeing every overwhelmingly that research showed that skill gaps are the things that have had the biggest execution drag. It wasn't 100% of the 80 companies that responded, but it was very close. So it is really being able to wrap our arms around that this isn't the soft stuff. There's nothing soft about it. This is about business results. We gotta measure it.

SPEAKER_00 18:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

And and being realistic and honest about it, but getting the data, right? Now you can get the data. You don't have to guess anymore. I think Elisa, one of the things for me that is really both fascinating and rewarding is that every single person, when they see their results, and then when they see the organizational results, like the C-suite teams, when they're seeing their data, they're like, aha, so much makes sense. It makes sense why we've had this issue. Now we like to get ahead of it so that the issues aren't there, right? Because this is very predictive data, but it can also answer why things have happened. We had a CEO, his company had been disrupted in multiple ways. Global tariffs had done some things. Their sales and marketing plan really got blown up in terms of what was going on with AI search, because they they were a Google AdWords, right? That drove a great majority of their sales. And he was positioning his organization to be acquired. He knew that that was his exit plan. And when he saw his results for his sales and marketing team, where he was able to really dial in on that group, he saw that they had really great human connection skills, right? Very highly skilled. Now, chicken or egg, do you end up in sales and marketing because you are highly skilled in human connection or do you develop it over time? Probably both. When he looked at their discrete skills under change resilience, now this was a team that he needed a totally new go-to-market strategy from. He needed them to be exercising different ways of working together. They were low on adaptability, they were low on problem-solving confidence, they were low on persistence, everything that he needed. And he quite literally said, I don't care about the rest of the organization right now. Our sales have flatlined. I need this team. And so they were very targeted in terms of the training, the coaching, the support that that sales and marketing team is getting, continuing to get to build those skills. Because I think that's the other thing that's great about this. It's like any skill you can get better at these, right? They're not, they're not static.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

And if I could add, because I love that example, and partly why I really love seeing the radar map, because it's a great way to see the aggregate results. It's interesting, you know, if you do your Myers-Briggs or your strengths finders or things that tell you about yourself, but the team assessment, the team diagnostic is really kind of where the value is, because so many organizations are leaking value in change initiatives because this is the unseen. This is the undiagnosed and anecdotal at best. All right, let's take a quick pause here. Because if you're listening to this and thinking, you know, I'm dealing with something just like this, you're probably not alone. Behind the scenes, I'm having tons of conversations with leaders navigating this right now. So I'd love to connect on LinkedIn. Tell me what resonated, tell me what challenged you. Tell us what you want us to dig into next. I'm always open to conversation. All right, let's get back to it. One of the observations I made as we were looking at some of the data in the one example that we looked at, even within individual contributors and managers, that slice of how are our managers showing up versus our individual contributors as it relates to human connection and really, really interesting information. How are organizations looking at that aggregate result? Yes. And being able to diagnose where there's value leakage.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

And I love that you called that out because one of the things that you can do with C2IQ is you can actually have custom data source. Right. So you can look if what's important to you, if you're thinking about either where you're seeing uh a team or part of the organization not produce results, right? You want to get to that root cause, doing some data sort that way. And then there's always a role sort. So executives, managers, and individuals. And you absolutely want to dig in on that. We had another tech organization that they knew that they had to embed AI in their product. They just had to. You can't be a tech company these days and not have some sort of AI capabilities in your product. And they took C2IQ. And when they were looking at their diagnostics and they were pulling out their management team. Now think about in any change and literally just in day-to-day work, frontline managers carry the weight of the world. Right. It is, it is on teams that work gets done. And those managers were so at risk of burnout, of quitting, looking at their skills. They did not have the capabilities that were needed for the extreme pivot that this organization needed to take. And again, long-term investment in these people. So it wasn't like, oh, we're just going to get a whole group of managers. It's like, no, we're going to get them the resources, the support, the training, the coaching that they need to get better at this because we have to pivot or we won't be in business. And it really was being able to look and diagnose. So sometimes, like in the first company we talked about, right? That was about a function, right? The sales and marketing team and what they needed because of what was happening in the organization. Same thing with this, it was about the management layer versus particular departments. It's like this key group of people is really important to us. We have another case study that it was the executive team. And what needed to happen, the CEO understanding what her skill gaps were and how she needed to lean on her COO for the skill strengths that she had to supplement hers and how they were really looking at strategy and who was going to own what part of strategy based on their skill sets.

SPEAKER_02 24:18

How amazing. Just all the different connection points on how to move change forward and where to stop stop those value leaks because you don't see them. The assessment sounds robust because it is, but it also only takes about eight to ten minutes.

SPEAKER_01 24:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:35

And you can surface that human risk data that most organizations have never seen at the individual level.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

I have to say that's what we love about it. Right, there's a there's a kind of a simple, simple power for powerful elegance to it. In eight to ten minutes, as long as you have five people or more that have taken the assessment, because there's anonymity, those data dashboards start to populate. I mean, literally in two weeks, three weeks, maybe if you keep the assessment open that long, you suddenly have this reporting that is predictive of where things could go wrong, what the organizational risks are for each skill gap, right? And and then the ability to be really targeted, right? Not a peanut butter spread of we took a sentiment, right? We did a poll survey. That's sentiment, not skills, right? These are the discrete skills that are, that are necessary. And again, it's like seeing individuals getting their report, feeling the agency, like, oh, now I know I can get better at these things, I can lean into these things. But then seeing the organization and leaders being able to say, now we know what to do. 70 plus percent of change fails. 70 plus like it's ridiculous the amount of time, money, resources that are thrown at failed change until now we have not been addressing that root cause of the humans that actually have to do the work. Exactly. Do they have the skills that are needed?

SPEAKER_00 26:02

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 26:03

And that's where a powerful complement to having a robust change strategy. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 26:12

With ProSire, Cotter, other whatever pick a model that we've all been following for decades. Even that, right? Think about layering this data into the work that you're doing. Think about now being able to say, okay, maybe we are doing something, maybe we're using Hogan. So we're getting some things around personality and preferences and and and maybe we're doing post surveys and we're using, let's use ad car, right? Now imagine that you've got skills data and you have human risk intelligence telling you where there are gaps, right? That will create execution issues, layering that data into the work that you do. And that's what this is. It's it's it is very additive.

SPEAKER_02 26:54

Yeah. And I will say it's been so pun intended, transformative for my practice and why I found my way to the transformation space, because most practitioners don't understand the human behavior side of the change, the connection and the skills piece. So it really did bring it full circle for me. And I'd love for you to share whether anecdotally or if you have a specific case study that you've done around how that assessment revealed something that changed, gave data to a leader to change the way they were making decisions around how they invest in their talent differently.

SPEAKER_01 27:31

Well, the thing that has been interesting across the board is not just one case study. It was an understanding of very specifically this was seen as soft before. And so the way that development was being done was again peanut butter spread versus this, we can point this directly to a risk. I would hazard right before people were like, okay, we need to, we need training, coaching, mentoring on persistence skills, on problem-solving confidence skills, right? To be able to get both targeted to the group and to the skills that are needed. It is transformative.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

I hate to I know.

SPEAKER_01 28:18

I mean, I like I did this work in organizations years ago, right? And and I think about what we would do, right? Why am I resisting change? Where am I in the change emotion cycle? Where am I in the change cycle? Who are we going to get on the guiding coalition, right? Like all the different models. And there's this missing piece. There is this missing piece.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

So for the leaders listening to this today, who I would say, given the data that we know about pace of change in organizations, whether it be high stakes change because you're changing your go-to-market strategy, or you're going through an org model change, or you're going through an MA or you're implementing AI, all the kind of key factors that organizations are grappling with right now, often all simultaneously. Yes. And you're a leader suspecting that you have human risk in your organizations that you cannot see, but you know that you're seeing symptoms of the change fatigue, the eroding trust, the teams that are burnt out, that no one is talking about except for on kind of the Slacker Teams channel on the side. What is one thing they can do this week to get better visibility into what is really going on in the organization?

SPEAKER_01 29:38

It's having the honest conversation with your leadership team to say, do we even understand that this risk exists? Are we acknowledging it? What are we doing? What data do we have? Pulse surveys, by the way, our last platform had pulse survey capability. We did them all the time. Actually, C2YQ will probably have pulse survey. Those are those are moments in time sentiment. Again, important, but that's not what we're talking about here. So do you have a discrete way to measure this? Are you thinking about this? Have you really sat and thought about how successful we have been in the last three change initiatives? What did that cost us? Because I do think one of the things when if you're about to invest in a new way of doing something, because that's what we're talking about here with understanding human risk intelligence, you have to understand what has it been costing you to not address it? Have we seen the issues? And then what are we going to do about it? Obviously, I would say everyone, yes, get your organization, right? Use C2IQ. If you're not going to do that, really start thinking about what are some of those change resilient skills, what are those human connection skills? What are we willing to invest from time, resources, money, right, to get better at this? Because the neurological impact of change and disconnect is not going away. Right. So we're running around with people burnt out, change fatigued, lonely, the loneliness epidemic. You are likely not getting the best from your people.

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 31:16

And so if you want that next change initiative to not be the 30% that actually succeed, right? You don't want to be that 70% again. Really think about how you're building this into your strategy.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

Well, I don't know that we can end on anything better than that, Mo, but I will just say thank you so much for bringing this into the world. Again, I've given a testament to how much it's meant for me and my own practice around making sure that in addition to the strategy and the sentiment, I also have the ability to measure skills of our people. So the way that we move forward to make sure that we don't have those value leakages, I love starting with just simple questions around where is the data that we have around this today? And oftentimes it will be light. And if we have that data, what is it costing us? And what is the cost of continuing to do nothing?

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Like the cost of doing nothing is the cost of every failed, or maybe it's not an outright failure, but it took you longer. Listen, speed to change is a competitive advantage. And being able to have your folks skilled enough, right? It doesn't mean that their neurological impact isn't going to be there right away, but they're going to be better at it. They've got the muscles of change resilience and human connection so they can execute much more quickly. That's how you win in the market.

SPEAKER_02 32:48

Absolutely. The change fails not because you didn't turn the thing on or implement the project. That is a milestone. That does not mean success. Right. So, how are you measuring the sustainment of that? And I think C2IQ is perfectly positioned to support that. So thank you so much for spending time with us, sharing all of your research and all of the work you continue to do in this space to make work work for people. And I will include some of this information in the show notes for listeners if they'd love to follow along and see what you're up to.

SPEAKER_01 33:22

Elisa, thank you so much for having me. This is a great conversation. I really appreciate you hosting this podcast and talking about the human ROI. So necessary.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Thank you. Yeah, and I look forward to continuing the conversation. Thank you so much for investing your time with us here on the Human ROI podcast. If this episode gave you a new perspective, something to take back into your work, I'd love for you to subscribe, leave a review, or share it with someone in your network. Because this show doesn't grow by the algorithm, it grows through real dialogue. And if you want to keep the conversation going, I'd love to. You can find me on LinkedIn or follow along on my newsletter, The Human ROI. So until next time, remember, your people are not a cost center, they are your greatest source for value creation.